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Re: Darwin on propositions which can't be disputed


On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:06:15 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com

Googling with "propositions disputed" brings this thread at nr.2 out of 507 000 hits.

The only other thread I got dealing with his term is: http://able2know.org/topic/50511-25 ".... Nevertheless, this difficulty, though appearing to our imagination insuperably great, cannot be considered real if we admit the following propositions, namely, that all parts of the organisation and instincts offer, at least, individual differences—that there is a struggle for existence leading to the preservation of profitable deviations of structure or instinct—and, lastly, that gradations in the state of perfection of each organ may have existed, each good of its kind. The truth of these propositions cannot, I think, be disputed...."

Post rosborne979 says: "...I'm not sure I like Darwin's writing style; a bit pokey. But he was right, the truth of those propositions cannot be disputed. And that alone is an exceedingly powerful argument....."

Rosborne979 is incorrect. Darwin formulated a tautology as I explained on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) article a tautology is formulating a proposition in such a manner that it cannot be disputed - it is a logical fallacy.




On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:54:39 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com

A tautology is formulating a proposition in such a manner that the truth of the proposition cannot be disputed. "the truth of the proposition cannot be disputed" is straight of Darwin's book: ".....Origins of Species by means ....... of the preservation of favored races...". Darwin's very term is what the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) article defines as a logical fallacy: Tautology.

Notice the tautology in the very title of Darwin's book " .... preservation of favored races....." The truth of the proposition that certain races were preserved can therefore not be disputed because they were "favored". What one supposed to do is formulate your propositions so that they can be disputed such as Newton's inverse square law. One can test it experimentally, but how could one disprove the following: "....races that were preserved were favored...." It provides us with no way to falsify the statement. The failure to understand this is why we had two world wars and why Dembski, Ham, Hovind and YEC Paul Nelson with his "functional advantage" tautology on the Illustria media video are today mentally ill. Because this is really the only issue we should be hammering on. Nothing else will make sense before you rid your mind of tautological thinking. We all want to believe that what we believe is the truth, but formulating for your view by propositions which cannot be disputed is not the way to do it.

And the same logic for religions. The only religion or person Jesus Christ that went out of his way to formulate a falsification test - Glossolalia has 70 peer reviewed articles dedicated to disproving that Jesus was the Son of God. They have thus falsified Jesus claim to be God because they well reasondly tested Christians proving that they were speaking gibberis, but as Popper said "..... you need to find just one black swan...." You need to find just one Christian who can speak in tongues ...... just one....... Today there probably are only ten, most of these ten don't even realize that only a few can speak in tongues.



On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:47:27 -0600, Free Lunch <...@nofreelunch.us

On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:06:15 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com As we all know, you never explained it. You asserted it and failed miserably in your attempt to support your erroneous assertion.


On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:16:01 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com

cannot be disputed Edit

http://www.bartleby.com/11/4011.html

IF under changing conditions of life organic beings present individual differences in almost every part of their structure, and this CANNOT BE DISPUTED; if there be, owing to their geometrical rate of increase, a severe struggle for life at some age, season, or year, and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, considering the infinite complexity of the relations of all organic beings to each other and to their conditions of life, causing an infinite diversity in structure, constitution, and habits, to be advantageous to them, it would be a most extraordinary fact if no variations had ever occurred useful to each being’s own welfare, in the same manner as so many variations have occurred useful to man. But if variations useful to any organic being ever do occur, ASSUREDLY individuals thus characterised will have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life; and from the strong principle of inheritance, these will tend to produce offspring similarly characterised. This principle of preservation, or the survival of the fittest, I have called Natural Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in most cases, to what must be regarded as an advance in organisation. Nevertheless, low and simple forms will long endure if well fitted for their simple conditions of life.

rephrase Edit

Organic beings have differences in their structure, and this cannot be disputed; if there be struggle for life at some age, season, or year, and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, considering the infinite complexity of the relations of all organic beings to each other and to their conditions of life, causing an infinite diversity in structure, constitution, and habits, to be advantageous to them, it would be a most extraordinary fact if no variations had ever occurred useful to each being’s own welfare, in the same manner as so many variations have occurred useful to man.

But if variations useful to any organic being ever do occur, assuredly individuals thus characterised will have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life; and from the strong principle of inheritance, these will tend to produce offspring similarly characterised. This principle of preservation, or the survival of the fittest, I have called Natural Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in most cases, to what must be regarded as an advance in organisation. Nevertheless, low and simple forms will long endure if well fitted for their simple conditions of life.

rephrase Edit

Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, it would be a most extraordinary fact if no variations had ever occurred useful to each being’s own welfare.

Variations useful to a being do occur, assuredly individuals thus characterised will have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life; and from the strong principle of inheritance, these will tend to produce offspring similarly characterised. This principle of preservation, or the survival of the fittest, I have called Natural Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in most cases, to what must be regarded as an advance in organisation. Nevertheless, low and simple forms will long endure if well fitted for their simple conditions of life.

rephrase Edit

Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred.

Variations useful to a being do occur, assuredly individuals thus characterised will have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life; and from the strong principle of inheritance, these will tend to produce offspring similarly characterised. This principle of preservation, or the survival of the fittest, I have called Natural Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in most cases, to what must be regarded as an advance in organisation. Nevertheless, low and simple forms will long endure if well fitted for their simple conditions of life.

rephrase Edit

Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred.

Variations useful to a being assuredly do occur, such animals will have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life. And from the strong principle of inheritance, these will tend to produce offspring similarly characterised. This principle of preservation, or the survival of the fittest, I have called Natural Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in most cases, to what must be regarded as an advance in organisation. Nevertheless, low and simple forms will long endure if well fitted for their simple conditions of life.

rephrase Edit

Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred.

Variations useful to a being assuredly do occur, such animals will have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life. This principle of preservation ..... I have called Natural Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in most cases, to what must be regarded as an advance in organisation. Nevertheless, low and simple forms will long endure if well fitted for their simple conditions of life.

rephrase Edit

Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred.

Variations useful to a being assuredly do occur, such animals will be preserved in the struggle for life. This principle of preservation ..... I have called Natural Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature. But simple forms will endure if fitted for their simple conditions of life.



On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:53:23 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com

On Jan 10, 2:16 pm, backspace <...@gmail.com

Simplify it even more:

rephrase Edit

Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred. Variations useful to a being assuredly do occur, such animals will be preserved in the struggle for life. This principle of preservation ..... I have called Natural Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature. But simple forms will endure if fitted for their simple conditions of life.

rephrase Edit

Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be disputed; there is a struggle for life and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred. Variations useful to a being assuredly do occur, such animals will be preserved in the struggle for life. This principle of preservation ..... I have called Natural Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature.

rephrase Edit

Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be disputed; there is a struggle for life and this certainly cannot be disputed and thus the only conclusion which cannot be disputed and assuredly is so is that useful variations occur and such animals will be preserved and improve upwards towards their higher destiny. This principle of directional goal directed preservation ..... I have called Natural Selection.

rephrase Edit

Animals have differences and this cannot be disputed; there is a struggle for life and this certainly cannot be disputed and thus the only conclusion which cannot be disputed and assuredly is so is that useful variations occur and such animals will be preserved and improve upwards towards their higher destiny on increasing complexity from lower simpler forms. This principle of directional goal directed preservation from simple to complex of favored animals I have called Natural Selection.

rephrase Edit

Animals have differences and this cannot be disputed; in fact it certainly cannot be disputed and thus the only conclusion which cannot be disputed and assuredly is so is that useful variations occur and such animals will be preserved and improve upwards towards their higher destiny on increasing complexity from lower simpler forms. This principle of directional goal directed preservation from simple to complex of favored animals I have called Natural Selection.



On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:09:29 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com

Rephrase Edit

The existence of an elephant is the result of the preservation of precursors from the first living cell millions of years ago.

Finally Edit

"...The existence of an elephant is the result of the improvement of precursors from the first living cell millions of years ago by some mechanism...."

  • Which came first Inverted Pendulum control or the chicken and what

has the term "survival advantage" got to do with explaining it?

  • How do we solve a problem we can't define?
  • What has a survival advantage got to do with the definition of

life? (Note to answer the question you must ask me a question back: Who said SA because there is no language without a motive and only individuals can have volition - who are these people).

  • How does this mechanism explain Life a concept that isn't defined

within the materialist paradigm?

  • Is the mechanism a cause or an effect. Colby, Provine says an

effect. Darwin said a "....power incessantly ready for action....." - who must we believe.?

  • If natural selection is an effect what then is the cause answer in

terms of the definition of Life.

  • What is the formally established Theory of Micro Evolution or is

there perhaps no such theory?

  • Is Life a spiritual of physical process and what relation would this

have to the concept Darwin, Haloy, Harshman, Chomsky and Wilkins have with natural selection.

  • If we assume that the brain is like a Linux operating system , in

what way did this mechanism create it?

  • What is the relation of this mechanism to the definition of Life

itself ?

  • What is the concept behind survival advantage and the relation

to this mechanism.

  • What is the concept defined by which person of differential

reproductive success and the relation to the mechanism since Darwin never used the term.

  • What is the concept with the word adaptation and this concept's

relation to the mechanism.

  • Spencer said Survival of the fittest which Darwin said was a

better expression what is the link between Spencer's concept and this mechanism.

  • How do we know we are not confusing the effect(survival,

reproduction) with the yet to be defined cause which must include Life itself.

  • When people say "Natural Selection" which specific authors in what

time eras are they interpreting with what concept constrained by what lack of knowledge ?

  • Which authors did Darwin interpret with his mechanism of natural

selection - Haloy(1846) - who else.

  • William , Matthews, Wallace, Darwin, Huxley, Richard Owen some of

who coined the term for a specific concept they had.

  • Is the mechanism spiritual or material.
  • How would you derive the mechanisms ability to transform species

from first principles if we can't define what Life is?

  • How does one describe the action of this mechanism if it can't be

disassociated from the question what is Life?

  • Is this a universal mechanism does it explain everything. If so how

would this relate to the definition of Life?

  • What can this mechanism not do in terms of the definition of

Life.

  • How does this mechanism explain consciousness, Life and Language

other than talking about survival advantage.

  • How does Howard's concept with the term "survival advantage" relate

to the mechanism and the definition of Life.

  • Derive the concept of consciousness from first principles in terms

of this mechanism and the definition of Life.

  • How does this concept explain Chomsky's universal grammar in

children if he says that natural selection can't explain it.

  • What is the concept Chomsky had with "natural selection" was he

referring to the paper by Haloy which Darwin called The Theory of Descent with Modification which Darwin associated with the term The Theory of Natural Selection. Was Chomsky actually thinking in French about the 1846 paper?

  • Does this mechanism function in the same way as millions of years

ago today, if so what was the definition of Life millions of years ago?

  • How would we falsify the mechanism's action millions of years ago

since we don't have any brain tissue from back then nor knew what Life was back then.

  • The question implies that we know what the mechanism is but since we

can't define Life we don't know what to falsify.

  • How do we falsify something we can't define.
  • Which fossil with his progeny would be evidence for the action of

this mechanism and how would you relate this fossil to the question of what is Life.

  • Take any fossil how do you know the fossil had progeny.
  • How does this mechanism explain an egg turning into a chicken a

question from 1909 Botanical Gazette http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microevolution MicroEvolution

  • In the cow whale transition did this mechanism achieve the

transition in the same way an egg turns into a chicken, answer in terms of what Life is.

  • How does this mechanism explain inverted pendulum control as an

abstract concept in all animals implemented physically by soft tissue.

  • Is this control algorithm somehow separate in a higher dimension

from gray brain matter or part of it, how would the mechanism explain it.

  • How does soft brain tissue with it's neural connections relate to

the definition of Life?

  • How does a dumb chicken implement an abstract concept such as

inverted pendulum control if humans have difficulty describing it mathematically ?

  • Derive from first principles how this mechanism transmits IPC as an

abstract concept from millions of years ago till today?

  • Control engineers start with PID control before learing Neural

control, how did this mechanism migrate the abstract IPC algorithm from PID to Neural in a chicken?

  • Did the control algorithm in the chickens brain perhaps skip PID and

went straight for Neural control how did the paper by Haloy Descent with Modification which Darwin was referring to with his concept that he labeled natural selection answer the question.

  • How did this mechanism do it for all the other millions of animals

independently and how does this relate to the definition of Life.

  • How do two dumb chickens transmit the Inverted pendulum control

algorithm to a blob of jelly which turns into an egg.

  • How does this mechanism take an egg consisting of a blob of yolk

transmit the abstract IPC control algorithm to the chicken it turns into.

  • How does a blob of egg yolk transmit the abstract control algorithm

of inverted pendulum control or is IPC perhaps "outside" the egg on a higher dimension?

  • If all thoughts are created by brain chemical actions how do we know

our brain doesn't consist of illusions?

  • If we came from a first living cell did it have all the control

algorithms preprogrammed ready for use millions of years down the line by this mechanism?

  • And if not why not, derive from first principles without talking

about survival advantage and include the definition of Life in your answer.

  • Control theory and the math transfer functions solved in real-time

are interdependent, how is this interdependence explained by the mechanism.

  • The real-time pivoting of a chicken on two legs does it use pre-

emptive multitasking , what operating system does it use Linux, Dos of OS2?

  • How does the mechanism explaining dreaming after we put our

operating system in sleep mode other than talking about "survival advantage" .

  • How does this mechanism derive an operating system in animals never

in contact with one another but implementing the same abstract concepts?

  • How many morphological transitions did it take to convert the

control mechanism in a cow to a whale in the cow whale transition.

  • How would the absence of soft brain tissue from fossils impact on

deriving this mechanisms action from first principles.

  • What example today could be provided for the action of this

mechanism other than noting animals are preserved and have survived.

  • What would be the result on the survival and preservation of species

if this mechanism no longer operates.

  • What falsification test can be provided for this mechanism.
  • Why must this mechanism be called natural selectus.
  • If the mechanism is material then why is the word *selectus* used a

word Augustus used in 99% of cases in the volition,motive consciousness sense.

  • What is the relation between the two words *selection* and
  • selectus* and what relevance does it have IPC control algorithm in

terms of the definition of Life.

  • Where is the formally established Theory of Evolution on wikipedia ?
  • When people say ToE are they using the term for its rhetorical

effect or are they thinking of an actual theory defined in terms of the definition of Life.

  • Where is the formally established Theory of Natural Selection on

wikipedia ?

  • Is the word "evolution" the same concept as Theory of Evolution.
  • What do you assume to be the truth?
  • What is Truth and how would this mechanism explain it.
  • What is the relation of this mechanism to the word "evolutionary" -

what does this mean?

  • What is the relation between the Theory of Evolution and Theory of

Natural Selection , what are these theories in terms of the definition of Life


On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:40:03 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com

"....preservation of favored races....." the preservation self referentially implies "favored" and "favored" implies the "preservation" of the races.

Here is what Wikipedia tells us about statements that self referentially implies the other:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) "..A rhetorical tautology ...... is a series of statements........... that the truth of the propositions cannot be disputed by defining a term in term's of another self referentially. ....... It is formulating a description in a way that masquerades as an explanation when the real reason for the phenomena cannot be independently derived......"

"....preservation of favored races...." is a description of the obvious phenomena that there are races but this description masquerades as an explanation when the real reason for the existence or races cannot be independently derived because it must incorporate the definition of Life which everybody now admits isn't defined with the reigning materialist paradigm. The materialist have ruled out apriori any other definition of life that doesn't have materialist implications.


On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:01:59 -0800 (PST), Wombat <...@multiweb.nl

On 16 Jan, 18:40, backspace <...@gmail.com Yawn.

Wombat


Discussion Title: Re: Darwin on propositions which can't be disputed Title Keywords: Darwin propositions which can't disputed

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