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Godel site Edit

Shannon’s theory does not quantify the semantical content of the message. Nevertheless all encoding / decoding systems (DNA, Ethernet, Human languages, TCP/IP) have a semantical component. And what Shannon’s theories supply us with is a set of mechanisms and formulas for verifying that the decoding has been properly done so that semantical content is preserved. It’s worth noting that all of the encoding / decoding systems I have referred to have mechanisms that perform this verification (through some form of redundancy). The systems you are attempting to map into Shannon’s model lack a decoding mechanism, and they lack this error detection feature as well.

http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=en&q=godels+theorem+youtube&aq=f&aqi=g-sx5g-sv2&aql=f&oq=

http://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/religion/godels-incompleteness-theorem/

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=135497&page=1

http://talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=23285

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8JLvEix8Xw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxoZ8REpH-g

ironchariots Edit

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorem

"Science is a formal axiomatic system. Therefore, if science aptly describes the universe, the universe itself acts like an axiomatic system. Therefore, it needs something analogous to an axiom outside of itself to be consistent and complete. So God exists." (See http://www.perrymarshall.com/10043/godels-incompleteness-theorem-the-universe-mathematics-and-god/)


http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_frm/thread/3dce2afb3339cfc2/c5d0c7e1fa95611b#c5d0c7e1fa95611b
Perry Marshall mp3 audio http://1cosmos.org/ transcribed.

To have information you need matter, energy and will. 12.20
The message is seperate from the media. All information requires thought.

Can patterns turn into designs. Is dna a pattern or a design?

ATCG letters of the DNA alphabet. It takes 500000 letters to represent a living organism.
In a human it takes 3billion and there is one of those messages in every cell. The information storage mechanism of DNA is more
dense than anything we know.

It is comparable to english and la
* DNA Language
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleotide, characters.
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codons - letters
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome - words
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operon - sentences
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulon - paragraphs
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome - chapters

DNA is encoding decoding mechanism that stores and transmits the message of the livinng organisminformation. Biologists used linguistic analysis to decode the human genome. Tools that linguists use to analyze languages ...... 16.36

  • What makes a language? It symbolically represents something other than itself.
    * To have information you must have a transmitter and receiver.
    Language has these four characteristics alphabet, grammar, meaning and intent(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics). Genes, computer code, feromones between insects, dogs barking and human speech have these four characteristics. Nearly all languages have error correction or redundancy. English is about 50% redundant. If you can hear every other word you can figure out what is being said.
  • Is DNA a pattern or a language? DNA is an encoding, decoding mechanism.
    * DNA represents more than itself, it represents an entire living organism.
    * It has alphabet, syntax, meaning-semantics and pragmatics
    * OR alphabet, grammar, meaning and intent. Pragmatics means intent.
    * It can be copied and stored in other media without loss of information.
    * Information is distinct and seperate from whatever it is stored in.
    * The pattern in DNA is not like a language, it is a language.
    Some disagree stateing that DNA is a molecule. DNA molecule is an encoding, decoding system. You can change the alphabet and still have the same message.

All languages contain grammar. If I say the "car is red". Is the car red - that is syntax.
Semantics would be "Did he steal that car" but by changeing the accent the semantics changes.
Intent: You have a green light. It could mean you are holding a green light bulb. Or you have a green light to drive your car. Two completely different meanings based on intent. Intent changed but syntax and semantics, grammar didn't change.

Information can be stored transmittered by matter such as a book or energy such as sound. But information itself is neither matter nor energy. If you only have alphabet or syntax but have no meaning or intent you have a meaningless sentence. In other words there has to be other sentences so you can understand what I mean by you have a green light. 25:32

The core issue for materialism is: Matter and energy all by themselves can't produce information. Cybernetics is the study of the interaction between man and machine.
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_Weiner said: "Information is information, neither energy nor matter, any materialism that fails to take account of this will not survive oneday." 26:51

Perry draws a three dimensional axis. Matter on x-axis. Energy on the y-axis. But the z-axis is will. Information can't be created without intent. There are no examples of information created without intent. All encoding, decoding systems come from a mind.

The problem with an Atheist belief is there is no way to explain where the DNA language came from.
* Because all encoding, decoding systems come from a mind.
* The element that is common to both Paley's watch and life is language.
Life is preceded by DNA and a watch is preceded by a blueprint or at least an idea in somebody's mind that preceded the building of a watch. 29.00 David Hume and Paley 30:35
* The essential distinction between patterns and designs is language.
* Patterns don't have language - designs do.
* The fundamental property of all designs is that an idea precedes the implementation of the idea.
The idea exists in symbolic form before it is physically built. For an idea to exist it must be represented by a language. Ideas all ways precedes implementation, all languages come from a mind - no exceptions.
* Therefore a mind designed DNA, therefore God exists.
* Show me a language that doesn't come from a mind.

Perry's asks: Did an antelope evolve into a giraffe. Did Perry use Evolve in the PatternOrDesign sense?

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